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Darshan with Swami Krishnananda – 1997
by Swami Krishnananda


26. Sankhya and Vedanta, Relativity and Quantum

(Darshan given on March 25th, 1997)

A visitor: Could you tell me about maya in the Sankhya philosophy?

Swamiji: In Sankhya there is no such thing called maya. It doesn't exist. The word 'maya' is never used in Sankhya. It is only used in Vedanta.

Visitor: But you have written that in the Panchadasi.

Swamiji: Panchadasi is not Sankhya. It is a Vedanta book.

Visitor: But is there a difference in the quintuplication in the…

Swamiji: Quintuplication is accepted by Vedanta and Sankhya both.

Visitor: Yes. Is the Vedanta based on the Sankhya?

Swamiji: No, it is not based, but it has no objection to it.

Visitor: It accepts the principles of the cosmology?

Swamiji: It accepts the principles of cosmology, but yet there is a great difference.

Visitor: But why the Samkhya Karika doesn't speak of quintuplication?

Swamiji: They stop with the mahabhutas, and they don't go further. It is a defect in the Samkhya Karika, really speaking. They ought to have accepted it.

Visitor: And then about tanmatra, can we say that tan is 'to stretch' and matra is 'measure'?

Swamiji: Tanmatra means the potential of tat. Tat means 'that'. Matra means 'the fine potential'. The fine potential of the elements is called tanmatra.

Visitor: So tan is not 'to stretch'?

Swamiji: No, it is quite different. It comes from tat.

Visitor: And the scientists are saying that matter and antimatter….

Swamiji: What is antimatter?

Visitor: I don't know. It is the other side of matter.

Swamiji: What is the other side of matter?

Visitor: I think it must be beyond.

Swamiji: You should never use a word whose meaning is not clear.

Visitor: But the scientists say…

Swamiji: Antimatter is a word that is used in quantum mechanics, and why are you touching that terrible subject?

Visitor: Because when they meet – matter and antimatter – light comes.

Swamiji: Now what subject are you discussing?

Visitor: About yoga.

Swamiji: How is yoga connected with antimatter?

Visitor: When a sage is in the light, it must be…

Swamiji: A sage is not in the light of antimatter. He is much beyond that. He is in the light of the Universal Being, not connected with matter and antimatter. He is still higher.

Visitor: Antimatter could not be the Universal Being?

Swamiji: The Universal Being is still higher. Antimatter is a very low state. Matter and antimatter are low states, whereas this spiritual light of the sage is based on the Universal Being. It has no connection with science and all that. It is quite a different thing. It is high. It is the light of mahat-tattva. You know what is a mahat? That is the sage's light. Matter is a very low category. There is no connection between the light of a carbon rod, which also lets off light in a cinema projector... A cinema projector produces a huge, powerful light by the proximity of two carbon rods, and matter attracts matter and produces light. It is not that kind of light that the sage experiences because this light is material light, but that is the spiritual light of the soul. So I can only compare it with mahat-tattva. Mahat-tattva light, cosmic light, that is the light of the sage. It is not material light. It is spiritual light. They are quite different things. What subject are you talking to me? Everything you are mixing up.

Visitor: I am teaching Sankhya, and was interested in the discovery of the scientists.

Swamiji: You have not understood the scientists properly. You have read only a little bit. You must thoroughly know it; then you will have no doubts. You have read only a little bit of it, so little bit of Sankhya, a little bit of Vedanta, a little bit of science and quantum mechanics has created a chaos. It must be properly understood.

Visitor: That is why I'm here Swamiji, and I ask questions.

Swamiji: There is no contradiction. They are all finally leading to the same conclusion. The only thing is, their methodology is different. As their methods of discovery, investigation, differ from one another, it looks as if they are telling different things. There is the finding of the relativity doctrine, for instance. It appears that relativity differs from quantum mechanics, but finally it does not. Quantum mechanics is concerned with subatomic particles, whereas relativity is concerned with space, time and gravitation. So they are two different things.

Now, a difficulty has arisen: How will you bring together into a state of harmony the cosmological discovery of space, time and causation according to the general theory of relativity and the subatomic theory of quantum mechanics? The unification of these three theories has been attempted right from the time of Einstein, but they did not wholly succeed. That unification theory is called the unified field theory. Even now people are working for it. How can the law of the subatomic particles harmonise itself with the cosmological findings of space, time and causation?

They are not two things. They are one and the same thing, as in Vedanta it says the innermost thing is also the outermost thing. The nearest that is in you is also the farthest that you can conceive. The farthest is the theory of relativity; the nearest is the quantum. That which is most inside you is also that which is farthest. It appears like that.

Quantum mechanics and relativity consist of equations. They are not intended for ordinary people. Ordinary people can only accept the conclusions drawn by them, but how they arrived at that conclusion, ordinary people cannot understand because it is highly subtle mathematics, which leads to such conclusions of an astounding nature that these equations finally cease to be equations. They cease to be mathematics, and then become operations of the mind only. Mathematics is a way in which the mind operates; otherwise, why should 2+2 make 4? Who told that? It is a kind of law that is operating in the mind which cannot think in any other manner. Though 5+2 is equal to 7, and 3 angles of a triangle make 2 right angles, which is accepted by everybody, this geometry and this mathematics does not hold good in the realm of subatomic particles. There the 3 angles of a triangle will not make 2 right angles, and 5+2 may not make 7. And yesterday can become today; today can become tomorrow. Time also is abolished there.

There is a conundrum: “A person came tomorrow.” How can a person come tomorrow? Is there any meaning? “A person came tomorrow.” It is funny to hear that. In the theory of the relativity of the cosmos – which transcends space, time and cause – past, present and future also are denied. A particular event is taking place always. It did not take place many years back. It is taking place even now, and it is taking place in the future also. Even now Christ is being born, even now the Mahabharata is taking place, even now Lord Krishna is dancing in Mathura. You may say he did it many, many years back. That is our space-time concept, and an event that is valid for a particular space-time concept need not be valid for another space-time concept. A thing that has taken place may yet take place in another space-time, and in the third context it may be taking place just now. In one realm the Mahabharata has already taken place, Christ has come and gone, Lord Krishna has also come and gone, but in another realm they have not yet come. Krishna is yet to be born, Christ has not come yet, and the Mahabharata is going on just now. So cosmic history has no past, present and future.

This is a wonder which we are led into gradually by subtle modern physical discoveries, especially in quantum and relativity. You will find that finally it is the same as tat tvam asi. Tat tvam asi means 'thou art that'. Thou art that, that art thou. 'That' means 'relativity'; 'thou' means 'quantum'. So, that art thou – quantum and relativity join together and become the field theory of the universal Absolute.

Visitor: It is fascinating.

Swamiji: Yes, a wonder. There are many wonders.

Visitor: Another question. There are particles and waves.

Swamiji: A particle can behave like a wave and a wave can behave like a particle.

Visitor: Yes, but the scientists say when the observer is looking, it disturbs the observation.

Swamiji: Therefore, it cannot be observed by anybody unless the observer enters into it.

Visitor: Yes. I wonder if the sage can go into not the particles but the waves, and not interfere.

Swamiji: When he enters into it, he enters into the universe.

Visitor: The waves are also in the universe, or it is beyond?

Swamiji: Entering into the particle and the wave is the same as entering into the cosmos, and he becomes universal experience at that time. For him no wave is there, and there is no particle at that time. Only he himself is there. When you isolate the perceiver and the perceived, these difficulties arise, but in the entry of the perceiver into the perceived, these questions will not arise. He will see himself only, and nobody else will be there afterwards.

A visitor: How do I know when I realise God?

Swamiji: How do you know that you are sitting here?

Visitor: I am aware that I am sitting here.

Swamiji: Same thing. You will be aware there. You will be aware of it in the same way as you are aware that you are sitting here. There will be no doubt at that time. If you want it, it will come. Whatever you want you can get, provided you want it. If you don't want it, it cannot come.

Another visitor: How can Sankhya reconcile with Vedanta?

Swamiji: If Sankhya gives up the idea that purushas are many, and accepts that there can be only one purusha, and also abandons the idea that there is such a thing called permanent prakriti opposed to purusha – if these two things are done by Sankhya, it automatically merges with Vedanta. It should give up the idea of the multiplicity of purushas, and it should give up the idea of prakriti as a completely different entity with no connection with purusha. Because of its insistence on these impossible things, Vedanta does not agree with it. If it accepts that purusha is only one and prakriti does not exist independently by itself, then Vedanta and Sankhya merge into each other. That is the only thing. Otherwise, there is no controversy.

Visitor: Then what is the relationship between prakriti and purusha if prakriti does not stand outside it?

Swamiji: According to the Sankhya, there is no relationship. They are totally different; therefore, it creates a problem. Even if the purusha realises itself in liberation, the prakriti will be there as an unknown entity, and the liberation attained will be a false liberation. As long as there is something outside you, liberation is not complete. So Sankhya is wrong in holding that there is a prakriti existing independently even after the purusha realises itself. There is no relationship between the two. They are two different things – that is the Sankhya purusha. But according to the Vedanta, the purusha and the prakriti are the subjective and the objective sides of things, both of which are transcended in the Absolute. This is the difference between Sankhya and Vedanta. The objective universe is called prakriti, the subjective consciousness is called purusha, and both of them are correlative of each other, one depending on the other; and the truth is neither this side nor the other side. It is a transcendent principle which is the Absolute, Brahman. So this is the reconciliation of this unnecessary contradiction created by Sankhya. That is the whole sum and substance of it. Otherwise, there cannot be any relationship between two contradictory things.

Swamiji [to another visitor]: To make your life spiritual, what is the technique that you are adopting? What do you do actually?

Visitor: I am teaching. I try and help other people maybe, if I can.

Swamiji: Helping other people is a social service, but that is not actually meditation. Though it is helpful, it itself is not. Spirituality is the consciousness of God. Without consciousness of God there is no spirituality. You may do anything afterwards. You may love people, serve people, you can do any business, no objection, provided it is based on love of God. Otherwise, any activity has no meaning. All activity has the soul which is God-consciousness. You have to maintain God-consciousness, which is called meditation. Then after that you may do anything. You do your professional work, you may do your business, you may do anything. Any activity is good provided at the background there is the rootedness in the consciousness of God.

Mentally can you visualise that there is a Creator of the whole universe? This is important. Your heart should accept that there is a Creator of the whole universe, a Mighty Being pervading the whole universe and transcending everything, knowing all things, present everywhere, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, absolute. That Being is the only reality. This is what you want. If you can visualise this mental picture of the great universal Creator, and make it part and parcel of your feeling, and think of it as many times as possible, you will get transformed completely spiritually to the extent you are able to concentrate your mind on that. Then you become a teacher, you do business, anything you do, and there is no objection. You can do whatever you like, but it should not be minus God-consciousness. Have you got any problem?

Visitor: I have been doing meditation over the years, but I don't find balance between this part of my life and the part that I am a teacher.

Swamiji: There is no contradiction between God and His creation. It is His own emanation, so you should not see a gulf between two things. When you are externalising God with your sense perception, God looks like the world. When you see the whole world with intuition, the world itself looks like God. It is only the perception that makes the difference. There is no such thing as world minus God. Both are identical, but they look different on account of your identity through the sense organs. The eyes and ears and the other organs of perception, working through space and time, project the Absolute into an external something, and we call it world. And you should finally not make a distinction between the two. They coalesce. The external and the internal joined together become the Universal.

Visitor: How?

Swamiji: How? By meditation. You must deeply think this. You are the internal as the perceiver of the world, and the world is the external as that which is perceived. These two join together and become one Universal Being. That is God-consciousness. It requires great effort. A few minutes of thinking is not sufficient. You must devote as much time as possible throughout your day. If you are sincere and honest, and persist in this visualisation through meditation, you will succeed. You will be happy.

Visitor: I understand, but in practice it doesn't work.

Swamiji: That is because your will is not very strong. Your willpower is weak.

Visitor: Maybe.

Swamiji: Persistently you must do that. Go on repeating it like a mantra, and by repeated chanting the mind will come to a point of concentration.