Darshan with Swami Krishnananda during 1997

by Swami Krishnananda

56. Matter and Consciousness

(Darshan given on November 25th, 1997)

Swamiji [to a visitor]: What are you supposed to do in this world? You answer this question.

Visitor: Duty is in so many things: duty to God, duty to the world...

Swamiji: You should not say like that. You must speak like an engineer or an architect. You will touch every aspect of the structure. You ask the architect: “What are you supposed to do for building a house?” “Dig the foundation and raise the wall and put a chhat.” Like that if you tell, it is not all right. There are so many technical matters.

It is very difficult to answer this question. First of all, you tell me what you are made of. What is the substance out of which you are made? You cannot answer this question.

Visitor: Everything is involved in matter – life, everything.

Swamiji: Are you made of matter? Who was talking to me now? Is it matter talking, or Ajit talking?

Visitor: But starting point...

Swamiji: Who is talking just now? Matter has no brain; it has no consciousness.

Visitor: But matter is the starting point.

Swamiji: No, who was speaking to me just now?

Visitor: Developed matter.

Swamiji: Developed matter? No. You are a materialist. Matter cannot be developed into consciousness. If you boil sand, it doesn't become milk. Any amount of boiling of sand is sand only. Do you think milk will come out of sand by boiling it? Matter cannot exude consciousness. It is a foolish idea of the materialists. That which is not in the cause cannot be found in the effect. The cause is dead matter, and the effect is consciousness, you are saying. How is it possible?

So you are not matter. Matter cannot speak. It has no tongue, it has no intelligence, it has no brain. It is like a stone. A stone cannot speak. That is an example of matter. So you require much training. You require further training.

Visitor: The world at the beginning...

Swamiji: I am not worried about the world. You find out yourself.

Visitor: I am trying to explain my point. The world – at a point of time it begins. Provided we agree with the hypothesis, we need to begin at a point of time.

Swamiji: Why do you want to agree to it?

Visitor: If you say eternity, there is no end to it, of course.

Swamiji: No, why are you worried about the world now? I'm talking about yourself.

Visitor: I was trying to substantiate that when it started, first matter, then only...

Swamiji: It never started, really speaking. That is also a wrong thinking. It never started because to start, time is necessary. Without the time process, there is no starting. But time is a part of the created universe, so creation cannot start in time because the cause will have to enter the effect so that it may create. So the whole theory of creation is false. It cannot be accepted at all. Without time, creation is not possible, but time is a part of the created effect, so there is a contradiction in the very doctrine itself. Without time, creation is not possible. The entry of time is called creation. But the time, which is necessary for creation, is a part of creation itself, so who created the world? Whoever has created the world should be outside of time. Can you imagine such a thing? If He is inside time, He cannot create because He Himself is involved in the process of the created object.

Visitor: He is above time.

Swamiji: Then, in that case, His connection to time also you must explain. The other problem comes: What is the connection between that Person who is outside of time, and time itself? They are two contradictories. There is a gap between time and the Person who is not in time. How will you connect destruction with construction? They cannot go together. Time is a process of destruction, and that which is above time is beyond destruction. The connection between God and the world is a mystery because it is a connection between eternity and time. It is a connection between health and disease, in some way. What is the connection between health and disease? They are working in the same person.

Great subject, great subject. You have to become a disciple of Swami Sivanandaji Maharaj. Are you agreeable? Don't be afraid. Swami Sivananda will not harm anybody.

Visitor: They only help the world, and everybody in it.

Swamiji: There was a yogi called Milarepa, in Tibet – a very great yogi. He went for initiation with some Master. This Milarepa was a sorcerer previously, black magic. He has learned black magic. He will do something and destroy anybody. He was a little child His father died early and his uncle usurped all the land, so they were living in utter poverty. This boy was playing outside. Children play. Poor people's children or rich people's children, it doesn't make any difference. They all play equally. He was going and jumping, and his mother slapped him. “We are in a wretched condition. Your uncle has taken away all your father's property. In that condition you are laughing and jumping.” she said. “This is not the occasion for laughing and jumping like that. You retaliate, and finish him. Give the uncle a lesson.” She pushed him to learn black magic. He went to a Guru. He learnt it. Then he went like this [Swamiji gestures] and a hailstorm fell on the uncle's land, and everything was destroyed, crushed, and all died. Afterwards he repented that he had killed everybody, so he went to a great Master, a spiritual hero, who said, “You have killed so many people. Go!” Anyway, it is a long story.

Milerepa went to another person, the nephew of this great Guru, for initiation with him. The Guru said, “What do you do?”

“I know nothing, only black magic. I killed everybody,” Milerepa said.

“Killed everybody? I see. I've got some enemies. You kill them also,” he said.

“No, I have come to expiate and not to do any further...”

“No, you do it. You see, so many birds are there. They are chirping and flying. Destroy them. Let me see your strength,” said the Guru.

Milerepa did like this, and all the parrots and peacocks and sparrows fell dead completely. “Oh, I am sorry. I am doing another mistake.” Then that Guru did like this [Swamiji gestures] and all the birds got up and flew away.

“You are not understanding properly,” the Guru said. “There is a remedy for everything. Nobody can kill anybody, because they are alive even if they are dead. I showed you like that,” he said. Though Milarepa had killed them with black magic, that person was more powerful. He simply did like this [Swamiji gestures] and all of them got up and flew. The dead got up. Now, who is doing the right thing, and who is doing the wrong thing?

Vyasa sipped three times the Ganga water and brought all the dead people. Each one started rising up from the Ganga – Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Duryodhana, all people. And the whole night they were talking to these people. Gandhari said, “I am sorry. I want to see my children who died.” And he said, “Yes, I will bring them.” And in the Ganga he dipped, sipped three times the water and everybody descended from heaven or wherever they were, and they were talking together and having dinner in the night. What do you say for that? And the next morning they went to the Ganga and vanished from that place. What do you call this power of Vyasa? The people who were killed in war, they all came, and in the evening they were having dinner with them. What is this? Whether they were really dead or really alive, what is it? What do you say about them?

Spiritual sadhana is very difficult. We can pat ourselves like this, “We have done so many yatras. To Rameswaram we have gone, taken bath so many times, we are doing japam and all that.” But nothing will work there finally. That is a very serious...

Every thought of ours is a mistake, we will realise afterwards. Every thought that you think is a mistake. It is not in the right direction because every thought is one-sided. It excludes the other side. A comprehensive thought is not possible. When you think something, you have excluded something else. That is the mistake. So you cannot think anything at all unless you think all things at the same time, which is very difficult. Even if you try to think all things at the same time, you will exclude space and time outside. That also you must merge into. Who can do all this work? Such kind of yoga, who will practise?

Nobody thinks like this. They think all is well. One day the prana will go away. At that time, then you realise whether all is well or not. Good people, bad people, old people, young people, healthy people, sick people – all die. At any time they can go, also; that is another thing. At any time. For any simple reason you will choke and go, so what is the good of saying that all is well? Nobody should say like that.

In one of the Upanishads it is said that it is a very dangerous situation. You must bite your teeth like this [Swamiji clenches his teeth]: “I decide to meditate properly.” It says bite your teeth hard, and clench your fists, and decide: “I shall never make a mistake from now onwards. My heart is sunk in that Truth: All-inclusive Being, pure.” I am not making a joke. It is mentioned in one of the Upanishads. We must be very firm on our own selves.