43. The Atman and Matter, Liberation, India's Spirituality
(Darshan given on August 22nd, 1997)
A visitor: What causes the Atman to come in contact with material existence?
Swamiji: It cannot come in contact with material existence. It cannot. They are totally different things. They are dissimilar in character. Matter and spirit cannot join, they are two different things – unless you conclude that either the Atman does not exist or the matter does not exist. If one of them does not exist, then there is no problem, but both cannot exist simultaneously. This is a philosophical blunder committed by people in the history of philosophy.
There is no such thing as matter, really speaking. It is only an externalisation in space and time of the Atman itself. When matter is internalised it becomes the Atman. When the Atman is externalised it becomes matter. So they are one and the same thing appearing as two things. So there is no question of one coming in contact with another thing.
There is only one thing in the whole universe. The entire universe is made up of one substance. If it is universal, it is Atman. If it is externalised, it is matter. Due to the operation of the sense organs which externalise everything, even yourself, you look like one of the many other persons in the world as an object, as it were. But you are not an object. You are a subject. You are an independent, self-identical Atman yourself, but when people look at you they think you are an object because you can be seen. Anything that is seen with the eyes is an object. So it is an error in imagining that there is an object. The interference of the sense organs through the medium of space and time creates a misconception that there is an external reality, while truly there is only a universal reality. The universal reality includes the internal Atman as well as what you consider external matter. This is a deep mystical secret and, ordinarily, a layman cannot understand it. Be happy.
Visitor: What does liberation mean?
Swamiji: Liberation is the merging of your existence in universal existence so that you don't exist apart from the Universal Being. You become universal yourself. Now you are located in a particular place. At that time, you will be omnipresent. This is liberation. You may call it God-realisation. Be ready for it. Are you ready?
Visitor: I don't know.
Visitor: Do you think that India's spirituality is going to survive in the 21st century?
Swamiji: Certainly. It cannot perish. India has many difficulties of an exterior type, but its interior stuff has not deteriorated. Even today when generally people feel that there is a lot of political and social confusion everywhere, yet the soul of the civilisation of this country is still alive. Even if there is only one person in the whole of India who represents this mighty soul of the country, you can say the country is alive. One person is sufficient. It has to pass through various ups and downs through human history, as is the case with every country. Anyway, I am not going into larger details, historical or anything else. I am only giving a direct answer to your question: The soul of India will survive.
Visitor: Will the body survive?
Swamiji: What is the meaning of 'body'?
Visitor: The Ganges River is in a very bad state, the forests are… There are hardly any forests left in India.
Swamiji: It will pass through many difficulties and hurdles, but it will survive.
Visitor: I'm talking about the body of India, I'm talking about the physical…
Swamiji: That which you see physically you are calling the body of India, the geographical India.
Visitor: Yes.
Swamiji: Oh, it will survive, certainly. Though it will have to pass through various difficult processes of survival, yet finally it will survive.
Visitor: And will it spread in the world, the spirituality of India?
Swamiji: This is a great question. The whole world will receive the spiritual message more and more as history advances. There is an old belief among world historians that culture moves from the East to the West, and then it takes one round. Again it will come back. Nature moves as a cycle. The movement of nature is not a straight line, but a circle. There was a time when India and China were having the highest kind of civilisation – once upon a time. They were number one, both India and China. Then what happened is by a purely historical process, the culture started moving to the West. There were the Persian emperors and the Babylonian and Assyrian emperors, for the time being. Then it moved to Israel, then it went to Greece, then it went to Rome, then it went to Europe. It went to England. Now it is in America. America is becoming a very powerful country, but it cannot go on like that. It will not be exactly as it is forever and ever. It will turn back, as if by a rotation of the Earth; through the Pacific it will come to Japan. Now Japan is coming up. It is competing with America in some way. After centuries it will again come back to China and India. All told, good days are coming to us. Thy kingdom come.
Visitor: How soon?
Swamiji: Oh, you will have to take many births, unless you want to reach God before that time. Why do you worry? You go to God first. From there you will see the whole cosmos.